What Mimbo Hath Spawned
From the beginning, Mimbo was meant to function like an empty framework that enabled developers to build advanced WP layouts more quickly. Developers ran with the idea, adding their own custom graphics and CSS.
Slowly I’ve begun seeing Mimbo redistributed on other sites. The folks at Niss.fr translated it into French, added a tabbed interface and made it available for download. The folks at Pwllheli.org created their own translation in Welsh (a language with so many adjacent vowels it looks like someone was typing with their fists, fwiw).
The GPL states that downloaders of Mimbo are “permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies”. Niss’s theme is non-verbatim, but because it retains the Mimbo branding I’m much less inclined to care. Mainly I’m just happy to see Mimbo be adapted in a way that helps people.
But, this week the redistribution of Mimbo was taken a step further by Michael Oeser, who changed the name to Branford Magazine, thus relieving him of any GPL issues. He also added some bits from Structure (Justin Tadlock) and Revolution (Brian Gardner), though anyone viewing the source code can see it’s 90% Mimbo with a new paint job.
Oeser has also provided a PayPal link in case anyone wants to compensate him for the effort.
(Completing the full circle, Niss is already offering a French translation of Branford Magazine!)
While Oesser is upfront about the influences, he’s never contacted me about the idea. Since Mimbo was released last August, I’ve had a handful of emails from people asking to release their own version, or if they could clone it and charge for it. My answer has always been that, while I obviously can’t stop them, why not dig a little deeper and create something original? I’ve never gotten responses to those emails (I like to assume they thought better of it), but I also haven’t seen any blatant Mimbo clones until today.
Before commenting further on this, I’m curious what you guys think.
Popularity: 2% [?]
I think it is a sorry sight to see certain developers are claiming that they have created brand new themes when all they have done is just change a few lines of code here and there, and given it a new name.
I was quite amused especially with Brandford Magazine theme, since I don’t see it being much different from Mimbo with a tabbed interface (although not implemented using Tabber), something that I and a lot of other guys have talked about in your forums.
It is true that you cannot do much to stop these guys, but they should indeed dig deep and come up with something unique rather than just change a few lines here and there, and claim to have created a uniquely new theme of their own.
Thats one of the problems releasing a theme under the GPL. But at least the author could have giving where credit is due and released it under the same license. There is nothing much you can do.
I feel a little dirty for having read his site.
Yes, he changed a few things, and having the tabs “pre-packaged” on the lead story block could be useful, but what else is changed? He at the very least could have swapped the leftcol and rightcol, or used a different font in the tags to make it a little less obvious.
It’s 100% true that many themes are just ideas built upon other themes, but at least most of those are less thinly veiled. He could have saved a lot of time in his “how it works” tutorial if he just linked the Mimbo theme release. :(
Seems this is simply the reality of “open-source” development. Good luck with it. What you have provided thus far, has been very helpful for others. Keep that in mind…
personally I think it was pretty lame.
As you say, his release is 90%+ mimbo - and some of the other 10% was clearly inspired by the great MIMBO forum - where people have selflessly helped build on the great MIMBO framework.
He could have at least called it “MIMBO with a twist” or whatever
The NISS.fr site feels diffferent to me (I believe he contacted you to ask) and by translating it to french he is providing a new and useful service. In part he added a tabbed version because he was running his site with it and so many people asked for help adding the tabs on his french forum.
I actually have a french friend who liked my use of your theme and was able to create a similar thing only once he saw the translation
Anyway, I guess plagiarism is the greatest form of flattery. .
Hi Darren,
I understand exactly what you can feel when you see your theme duplicated with some changes. I talked with Niss yesterday night, and we agreed that BM was a clone of Mimbo… Nevertheless, that will always be difficult to stop these kinds of works… You will see the same with Mimbo Pro in other ways…( for example your theme on torrent sites…) and you will always see people copy your theme, code and/or design… As someone said before, that is the Open Source Wild World…
But that does not excuse the fact that the guy used 90% of your code… I did not see that… So, that is more a “mod” from Mimbo than a brand new and original theme… And the fact that you can donate for it is really amazing…
I wrote an article on that theme yesterday night. I am going to delete it…
I was thinking these days about doing a mod of Mimbo and ask you for the release… If I do it, I should call it “Tribute to Darren” !! :mrgreen:
Good luck Darren and talk to you soon…
Hi Darren, Hi everybody!
Darren, I can’t tell you how wonderful is your work… For me, you simply creadted the best WP theme ever… Your way of thinking blogging is for me a real revolution. Mimbo is the most downloaded theme on my website… and by far!
The modified version that I “created” (it”s not a creation, it’s just a modification) is called Mimbo_niss, but in fact, in the footer I let the name “Mimbo”, because it’s Mimbo… The tabs are nothing compare the full theme.
I want to thank you for offering us a real premium theme for free!!! And now, I’m really impatient to see your future creations!!!!
Thanks a lot for the links and for talking about me on your website.
Stephane.
Just another thing : I forgot to add into the footer of the branford magazine theme a link to your website!! I will correct this just right now!
Darren, let me know if you want me to delete the entry about branford theme on my website. I put the article to private, while you don’t give me a response.
Darren, I’m right there with you. I was actually about to post this on my blog. I’ve looked through the source code myself. Most of it is from Mimbo, but he used code from my Structure theme also. No variable name changes. No class and ID name changes. At least make it look like it’s not the same code. The tabs section is pretty much straight from code I’ve written.
I wanted to give myself a few days to cool down before I rushed into posting something I might regret though. I honestly think the PayPal link should be directed to you.
Seems like things are getting clearer, huh ??
@Darren and all others: I feel I have to appologize. I used really a lot of your Mimbo theme and added some other things, changed some css and some other minor details. You might not call it “Theme-development”. I did “my” first theme and I did not see why I should change so much code used in the background which works fine just to pretend I re-invented the wheel. You feel pissed about the fact that I used Mimbo and changed it and didn´t call it “Mimbo-Something” or whatever to make clear it´s just a Mimbo derivate. Well that´s fine with me and oviously I was a little bit too blue eyed (can one say that in english?).
SORRY FOR THAT!
BUT: I just droped you a comment to inform you what I did. The easiest way to avoid conflicts would have been that YOU tell me you have an issue with that. That´s not very “qualified” behaiviour too.
In any case I will think about switching off BranfordMagazine or maybe call it something like “a Mombo derivate”. Or I will REALLY develop something new even if I feel it´s not really a shame what I did.
When i add a line an link in the Footer. Like “Based on Mimbo and Structure” can i please used the theme?
I have worked on it in the the past days. New Design etc. and now i like to use it.
Thank you.
Will: “The NISS.fr site feels diffferent to me (I believe he contacted you to ask) and by translating it to french he is providing a new and useful service.”
Definitely. I probably wasn’t clear enough about it, but sites like Niss which expand a theme’s accessibility across other cultures/languages are very valuable to the community, and Niss emailed me beforehand to announce it.
Gnome: “Seems this is simply the reality of ‘open-source’ development.”
It’s open-source, but within that community are also expectations of open communication. If you’re copping 90% of someone’s work and renaming it without discussing it first, it’s almost a guarantee of backlash within that community.
Fran: “So, that is more a “mod” from Mimbo than a brand new and original theme”
That’s right — the mods created by people in the forums are really cool, but they understand that repackaging and renaming the whole theme would be frowned upon. (Plus adding a PayPal link is really going to leave the wrong impression).
Oeser: “@Darren and all others: I feel I have to appologize.”
First of all, thanks for responding and I hope you don’t lose sleep over this. I didn’t post out of anger — I had received 10 different emails yesterday asking if I’d seen Branford, so I figured I should post something to open a dialogue on the situation. I’m glad that you like Mimbo/Structure/Revolution enough to adapt a theme from them.
Oeser: “just droped you a comment to inform you what I did. The easiest way to avoid conflicts would have been that YOU tell me you have an issue with that. That´s not very “qualified? behaiviour too.”
As of this writing, Branford is two weeks old and has already received a couple upgrades. My assumption was that an email from me would not have stopped its production (which is not necessarily within my rights anyway).
Oeser: “I did ‘my’ first theme and I did not see why I should change so much code used in the background which works fine just to pretend I re-invented the wheel.”
I don’t think many themes succeed in reinventing the wheel, especially if it’s the first theme you’re releasing to the public. Mimbo was my first public theme, but it got built out of necessity (to explore layouts and Template Tags) not as a quick mashup. If you want to make a positive impact on the world of themes, ask yourself “what does the community need?”, then try to build that.
Anyway, I do appreciate you providing an explanation and reconsidering the Branford release. Onward and upward ;)
Milo: “When i add a line an link in the Footer. Like ‘Based on Mimbo and Structure’ can i please used the theme?”
Sure — it’s very common to do this on your own site. Making it available for distribution is another matter ;)
@Darren (and to whom it may concern): I assume we might find a solution now. I added a copyright hint to the footer of my theme. Guess that´s OK with you?!
Check out: http://www.wp-themes.der-prinz.com/magazine/
I think if other people are using your work and charging for it, you have a right to be annoyed. If they are making changes and giving it away for free, that’s different in my opinion. I guess part of it depends on how significantly they are changing things.
Darren, welcome to the world of copycatters and freeloaders. Wait until you start seeing 20 different sites using your theme name as a post of theirs, trying to suck in SE traffic. Or I can tell you other horror stories that I’ve run into with my Revolution themes. Some I don’t want to mention because I don’t want to enable other internet idiots with nothing better to do that try to capitalize on our hard work.
Mimbo is a solid theme. Great work. Just take it all as a compliment, when you see people trying to mock your success.
the guy that cloned Mimbo said:
“I added a copyright hint to the footer of my theme.”
OK he doesn’t get it …….
Sorry for being so persistent,
but to be clear the guy that cloned Mimbo still doesn’t think he did anything wrong. the CURRENT comment on his German web site basically says that Brian Gardner (one of the three themes copied) hasn’t complained and he charges - so how petty are the other two?
you should let him with a credit on the footer
@Will (mainly): I didn´t copy a single line of Brians code. I just saw the layout, liked it and re-buildet it for my purposes. Guess that´s common practice in the WordPress world.
steven: “If they are making changes and giving it away for free, that’s different in my opinion. I guess part of it depends on how significantly they are changing things.”
The code and layout are similar enough to Mimbo that I’m surprised the author would bother giving it a new name (much less release it for download, hype it, and put up PayPal links, but I digress).
brian: “Darren, welcome to the world of copycatters and freeloaders. Wait until you start seeing 20 different sites using your theme name as a post of theirs, trying to suck in SE traffic.”
Oof. With the popularity of your themes, I’m sure you deal with this stuff every day. Thanks for commiserating ;)
–
michael: “I added a copyright hint to the footer of my theme.”
I appreciate the effort to add credits. I understand the desire to mash together a couple themes you enjoy, but the way it was handled seems to have struck many in the WP community as less than ethical. I suspect the negative associations will continue the longer you make Branford available for download.
Let me just re-state it and hope the point is made:
If you want to make a positive impact on the world of themes, ask yourself “what does the community need??, then try to build that.
Hi Darren, Hi everybody,
Darren, don’t you think that with that credit in the footer and if Micheal delete the paypal link, he should distribute Branford? I ask this because Branford offers options to Mimbo that are really cool and I’m sure that a lot of webzine users could appreciate its mod…
Everybody make mistakes… And Michael corrected his mistake very quickly..
I don’t know if we can say this in english, but in french we say :
“Error is human forgiveness is divine” ;)
With the success that Mimbo have generated, it is quite impossible not to get copied. Yes, it’s flattery but at the same time it is really frustrating to coders, much like the writers in the TV/movie industry whose impact were not that pronounced until the strike.
I think Darren has stressed his point quite clearly. If you want to create an impact as a WP theme designer, create a theme that will impact a target community that will become your niche. Brian Gardner’s Revolution has its own base with his design based on tech, news, sports. Justin’s Structure is based on a grid based concept with almost equal column frame but he introduced a tabbed sub-feature content in the middle. WPRemix have myriads of possiblity with his subpages.
It’s almost like Linux. You have a base Linux kernel, but you have RedHat, SUSE, etc. Instead of MODifying a version and naming it your version, create your own. Not exactly OOP where you could inherit from MIMBO and create a new class.
WordPress has given us a good platform to work with. Magazine based WP themes is just evolving right now. There’s room for achievement for WP theme designers.
Darren, don’t you think that with that credit in the footer and if Micheal delete the paypal link, he should distribute Branford? I ask this because Branford offers options to Mimbo that are really cool and I’m sure that a lot of webzine users could appreciate its mod…
Michael is free to release Branford with or without my endorsement. I agree that he was quick to address the issue and I appreciate his looking more closely at the ramifications. I assume if he wants people to take his themes more seriously in the future, he’ll work harder to innovate.
WordPress has given us a good platform to work with. Magazine based WP themes is just evolving right now. There’s room for achievement for WP theme designers.
Exactly. There are tons and tons of things that can be done with a WP theme that have nothing to do with traditional ‘blogging’. Most of these things no one has discovered yet. Look at the “Prologue” theme Matt just announced. It’s a fine idea and a nice innovation, but there’s nothing stopping the rest of us non-Automattics from experimenting with the format and releasing similarly innovative themes. Set the bar high, is all I’m saying.
Hum, a socalled “theme developer” not using his own theme on his own website says its all… and republishing your theme is just scraping. Period.
Btw: comment no 13 is NOT me.
@The original Milo: I´m not a professional theme developer and I never said that. I´m someone who likes to play around with those things in his spare time and that´s all ;-)
to me personally he ripped them all off and made one theme using yours mainly. but i dont know. id be a little miffed, but flattered in a way.
I know how you feel.
You can see what I think about this seeing this:
http://artecg.com
and then… http://neoarts.org
¡¡¡¡¡¡OMG!!!!!!
My problem was solved ^^U
I believ that if you offer the modified theme for free or paypal etc. doesn’t matter, you have to respect the intellect properties of the owner and give him credits on your site!
Darren: Recently I adjusted a few things and completely changed the code and design of the “tabbed section”. I also added a clear credit to “Mimbo” and as well to Brians “Revolution”.
Do you still feel this is just a “rip off” or is that OK with you right now?
Cheers
Michael
“The GPL states that downloaders of Mimbo are “permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies”. Niss’s theme is non-verbatim, but because it retains the Mimbo branding I’m much less inclined to care.”
Hey Darren,
It seems like you are implying that the GPL doesn’t allow “non-verbatim” copies, which isn’t the case. Your other comments seem to demonstrate you understand that, but just to be clear for the readers that don’t:
“You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work”
I would go so far as to say that allowing others to fork your code is the most powerful thing about the GPL. Without it, there would be no Firefox for example.
GPL is probably best suited to a free software project, but not so great for a generous guy who wants to share his work, but still wants credit for it. I think you would be better off with one of the creative commons licenses.
http://creativecommons.org/license/
With a cc license they would have to give you credit, and you choose if your stuff is used commercially and how it can be redistributed.
BTW: Can’t for Mimbo Pro
Erm, that’s can’t wait for Mimbo Pro …
michael oeser: Do you still feel this is just a “rip off”
Well, yes.
The layout, nav, and overall concept are clearly copied from Mimbo, and the CSS, nav menus and other elements which took me months to refine were simply taken, re-named and made available on your site without any discussion with me, Brian or Justin.
Sherman Boyd is correct that I should have sought a CC “No derivative works” license” (for example) in the first place, but I honestly never anticipated someone taking Mimbo and using it to leverage their own popularity.
I noticed you’ve also added customization showcases and forums to your site. A small part of me is flattered you’re imitating everything I’ve done with Mimbo right down to the tutorials, but part of me is pissed that you simply don’t understand that, GPL license or not, you have chosen a very shady way of trying to establish a reputation as a theme author. And when certain well-known personalities in the WP community commented to say just that, you ignored them too.
If I copied 90% the code from Blueprint, added a few lines then released it as “Greenprint (inspired by Blueprint)”, I would (understandably) lose some respect from web designers, because even though the lines I added helped the product, I’ve done nothing to enhance the overall concept while logging a fraction of the development time.
Earlier, I recommended you try to innovate and to create something your own, something unique and useful. You seemed to consider it. But in the end, you kept 90% of Mimbo and added some tabs. You seem mainly interested in popularity, and potentially money, since you initially posted a PayPal link, expecting to be paid for work you didn’t do. I’m not going to act surprised when you put ads on your blog, hoping to capitalize on “Branford’s” sudden popularity.
Ultimately, only you alone are responsible for your reputation as a theme author or web designer. If this is how you establish yourself, prepare for much angrier designers to come knocking on your door later on.
Oh my goodness…It seem as if we will not find a way out of this discussion anymore. And to be honest: I´m tired of leading this discussion over and over again. I feel I´ve done everything to credit your work. If that´s still not enough…well that´s life.
I´m not a professional designer, I don´t need (and do´t expect) to earn money with that. I´m just doing it for fun. So I don´t have to fear any issues concerning reputation. And honestly: I don´t think I will have any reputation issues…
That´s it for me…live long and prosper…Hugh!
One final thing I almost missed…
You say: “I noticed you’ve also added customization showcases and forums to your site. A small part of me is flattered you’re imitating everything I’ve done with Mimbo right down to the tutorials”
That´s incredible…you realy blame me for providing things like tutorials and showcases??? Is that arrogance or waht is it. Do you think you where the first who provides tutorials and showcases? I´m sorry…but that goes way too far, dude!
I think the lesson here is, don’t use GPL if you don’t want others to use your code without your permission. Period. Under GPL, a person can make minor bug fixes and modifications and redistribute. I consider Branford to be more than a bug fix, but not an entirely new concept (under GPL, many things fall into this category).
Personally, I don’t see the issue, especially with the added credit that is given to you. Nothing that was done required a meeting with you and your partners. I wouldn’t even say that it was unethical, especially given that Michael did right by including ample credit.
Peace.
Obviously a discussion that can go on and on, and a very emotional one as well.
I’m not a developer but a “user”. I’ve played around with themes such as Mimbo to get a better understanding of how to “personalise”, and it is clear to me that true Pros like Darren, MiloIIIIVI a.o. deserve full credit and respect for their work - works that have been made ground up.
Believe the only right thing would have been to personalise and with prior written consent made it available via darrenhoyt.com as a potential variant of Mimbo. It maybe COULD HAVE have been something like: Mimbo - Der Prinz Version - what do I know.
In my whole these cases would be the same as selling Ronald Suck “based on Carl Banks Donald Duck”??!!
When Madonna did “Hung Up” she had to write and beg a long time in order to sample the old ABBA song “Gimme Gimme Gimme”. Madonna is only one of two artist which have been allowed to do this with ABBA’s music (the other were Fugees) - with prior written consent. She’s still paying credits from every sold copy to the creators - ABBA. But it’s honest!
Ask for permission - not forgiveness… Create with your minds.
This discussion does little more than show ignorance of the GNU/GPL. Once a theme is released under the GPL anyone can modify and redistribute, under the same license and same terms.
Copyright notices in the source code must remain intact but there is no requirement to display links or comments in the css file.
Theme developers who want to retain all their rights and set conditions on the use of their work should never, ever use the GPL. And should never attack those who do modify and redistribute their work *if* the terms of the GPL are met.
Hey, I thought that both mimbo and branford themes are from you (of from the other guy). It would be OK to take it and leave the footer with contact information, right?
This is really nice theme, made with a lot of effort, but I must complain that I did not want to use it because it seams for me it is unfinished (for example, the navi on the left side seems chopped of, like something is missing). And also I got lost in the tutorial and still couldn’t make it work (I guess different structure of permalinks-have /category/postName) . Branford also. I dont understand he took your theme and made it half way through. I think the others do this to you while they also think there is some things that need to be finished, and after investing a lot of work they don’t want to leave the copyright info any more, and claim to be its creators. I am just looking forward to see the Mimbo pro finished, because I see the potential in the theme, and if the people than really think it is a finished theme which they will be able use without spending much time modifying it, I guess they will be happy to pay for it and leave the copyright information.
Well, first of: Forking is natural. Look at Iceweasel and cdrkit.
Secondly: Don’t you think a Wordpress theme is a so called derived work?
In my opinion you don’t have any choice than releasing your theme as GPL.
Your Mimbo Pro theme would be illegal in that context. Matt may not charge authors who release their theme under a proprietary licence, but nonetheless its a licence infringement.